Nicole Huesman: Francis Mei, it is wonderful to have you on She Lights the Way. Thank you so much for being here.

Frances Mei Hardin: Thank you, Nicole. It's truly a privilege to join you here.

Nicole Huesman: Wonderful. Can you tell us a little bit about where you are today in your journey?

Frances Mei Hardin: Absolutely, and sometimes it still doesn't even feel real. But I am in my third year of attending practice as a full-time ENT surgeon, which is otolaryngology or head and neck surgery, and I practice in a rural community setting, and I'm in solo practice, it's really, it's, it's been such a joy to be out here and build up the practice from nothing and, you know, be able to provide high quality care to our patients and their families here in Middle Tennessee.

Nicole Huesman: You've described where you are today, and [00:01:00] how, what were the steps along your path that got you there? I understand that you left for boarding school at what, at age 13, I think.

Frances Mei Hardin: Yep.

Nicole Huesman: What do you think, you know, that, that kind of independence at an early age, what what influence or impact do you think that has had on, on your journey?

Frances Mei Hardin: Yeah, I think overall very positive for me personally. You know, I. Had been attending a private Catholic school in a small suburb of Chicago that did not have other Asians really in it, nor people who were inordinately interested in STEM like I was. And so honestly, I think one of the biggest blessings of my life is when I moved out at 13 and went to the Illinois Math and Science Academy, where honestly I felt [00:02:00] that I was surrounded by like, like-minded people, and it was really the first time where I didn't feel like an outsider all the time. And so I think that. In terms of ultimately, you know, identity formation. It was, it was very integral to me the three years that I spent there. 

And what's so funny is, of course I remember people saying, oh my gosh, you know, I was a sophomore at 13. So yeah, there were things that I was like maybe a little bit behind on. And I graduated at 16, so I showed up to Notre Dame at 16. And I do remember people saying at the time like, wow, that's pretty crazy. Like, do you think that people shouldn't send their kids, you know, skipped two grades ahead, or, or or so forth. 'cause ultimately I skipped two grades ahead. That's how I ended up, like in the position I was in. And I, I never thought it was weird, but, you know, kids only have so much insight into what's going on around them. So of course, I look back and I, [00:03:00] I do think, wow, maybe I would've related to my surroundings differently if I were more mature. But at the time, happy as a clam. I really, I didn't feel too much pressure and I didn't feel a huge disconnect between myself and my classmates.

Nicole Huesman: And oftentimes, right, we don't know what we don't know. So if, I mean, we're, we're living our lives and we don't, we don't know any different.

What do you think was your inspiration for pursuing a career in science, then becoming a physician, and specifically you chose to go into head and neck surgery. What inspired you to pursue that type of surgery even? 

Frances Mei Hardin: So I think that the love for STEM was very natural. That's been as long as I can remember. You know what's funny is I say jokingly, but my parents wanted me to be a doctor and I wanted to be a graphic [00:04:00] designer, and so we compromised and I became a surgeon. But you know, in all seriousness, I am the child of a first-generation immigrant from Shanghai. My mom was a chief financial officer of a company in Chicago. My dad was a lawyer and customs broker for the government. And they always really did want a doctor in the family. And I'm an only child. So, you know, I think that that is what led to the initial, you know, discovery and impetus in medicine. 

What's funny about ENT specifically is that I, I did hear this great advice back in my pre-med years, my gap year before medical school, where I knew I wanted to do surgery because it was competitive. Also, I love to work with my hands. I'm a very, like, fine motor skill, you know, fine detail artist and I, I really, so I thought that that was beautiful, the ability to show up and work with your [00:05:00] hands every day. And the hilarious advice, although I think that this is true, I, I myself have told younger pre-meds this, which is when you're looking for a specialty or you're trying to lower things down, pick the bodily fluids that you can tolerate. 

Nicole Huesman: Can you talk about some of the challenges that you've experienced along your path, particularly in light of the fact that you work in a male-dominated field?

Frances Mei Hardin: Absolutely, and I really, you know, I think that there's so many phenomenal role models, women in medicine now who start to speak out about these issues. But that's very new. You know, that's only in the past few years here, and I know that a lot of people still receive every version of, Oh, hold on, the nurse is in the room. Or like, when is the doctor coming in? What's funny is, as a six foot woman [00:06:00] who brings like kind of a masculine energy to the room. I don't get that that often. But I think that particularly for more petite or feminine women, that is just about an everyday occurrence. Like I know people who deal with that about every day. 

There are also a lot of interesting things, and again, there've been some great writings on this, but anecdotally, women are much more often just referred to as like Francis. Or like Amanda, like by their first name, right? So where even a patient, like at the end of a clinic visit would be like, Oh, okay, thanks Francis, have a great day, as opposed to the way that men are much more consistently preferentially, you know, Dr. Smith. So yes, of course, you know, there's a million different ways that these little micro misogyny kind of moments come up.

Nicole Huesman: Absolutely. I think that you bring such a unique perspective to the [00:07:00] field. Can you talk a little bit about what we talked about earlier in terms of the seedy underbelly that maybe we as patients we don't see, we aren't aware of?

Frances Mei Hardin: Absolutely. I think it's a very fair term. You know, the reality is, and I understand this because I myself have been a patient, I have had absolutely loved ones in the hospital where I'm the family member of a patient. I. And so I can empathize with and easily put myself in the shoes of the patient hope and expectation may be that the, doctor, they just need to be perfect. I want a perfect robot sometimes, you know, when my, when my family member needs their gallbladder out, you know, I, I get it. It like the old school, the old fashioned inclination, and also because we love our, our family members and want the best for them, you know, we don't want like always this three-dimensional, very complex person who [00:08:00] who you know, has a life outside of what they're about to do that's lifesaving or life changing for our family member. And so it's interesting 'cause I, again, I get that side of the coin. 

But on the flip side, here's what is currently happening. That's not an accurate depiction of doctors. It's just not as much as we maybe all wish that we, we had you know, a workforce that was like that. The reality is that we don't, and so it just does a disservice to everyone to pretend that it's even possible. That that's even on the table, you know? 'cause I think that a lot of physicians, they don't feel comfortable admitting their humanness, you know, admitting like any of their own weaknesses and things like that. And that again, is to the disservice of the next generation of doctors who find themselves, you know, increasingly butting up against impossible standards, right? You [00:09:00] know, impossible work hours, expectations, standards. 

The expectation that they're perfect, they feel a very small range of emotions and they just like execute their job to perfection all the time. That doesn't leave a lot of room for compassion and because that's an impossible standard, the whole workforce to a pretty significant degree carries around, you know, shame, fragile ego, a lot of things that are all downstream of this. 

Like, we're all in agreement that the facade is, doctors are like doing okay, like they're doing really well, they're perfect. Don't worry about your doctor, like that person isn't struggling with X or Y or Z of their own. Even though we know that there's a physician burnout crisis. We know that mental health resources and care access feels and can be very limited for physicians and surgeons. We know that substance use is a huge problem for physicians and surgeons. [00:10:00] But a lot of these things are not talked about out in the open.

Nicole Huesman: It's so important to bring these issues to light so that we can talk more about them, and only then can we deal with them, and I think that you have done so many different things to advocate for physician wellness. 

 When I started to explore the number of things that you are doing to bring these important, really, really important issues to light, I was absolutely just blown away. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to forming these different things that bring these important conversations to light?

Frances Mei Hardin: Yes. Thank you so much for your kind words. I will say, just as a disclaimer, 'cause yeah, people do ask me, and, you [00:11:00] know, my brand that I founded, Rethinking Residency, which is a site and social media campaign to just provide as many resources as possible for the next generation. And that's pre-meds. I mean, that could involve high schoolers, pre-meds, medical students, college students, residents and fellows, and even early career attendings that we've had who have said, you know what? Like there was an account on there that a brave young resident shared, and it actually did make me think back to my residency. 

But Rethinking Residency is truly just a passion project. Like it's not, if you go to rethinking residency.com, you will see there's no ads on there, and we don't have it sponsored for a reason, because, having myself been there, I know that I don't want the struggling resident to be bombarded with ads when they're trying to actively, find someone to connect to or resources that could really help them when they're under duress. 

And my disclaimer is just that I myself, [00:12:00] I'm at a point in my life and career and I wasn't always, but I am now, a few years ago, I don't think that I could have shared much publicly of like my experience and my heart. But now I am at that point where I pretty openly, you know, I say I almost lost my life, like my fourth year of residency. I wanted to kill myself. And that was a big part of that that year. And it was directly pertaining to, you know, the work environment, the culture of surgical training at where I was. 

So, it's a very sincere place that this is all born out of because I can just very easily imagine being there in a way where, I mean, it's awesome the more that any doctor or really, you know, any great role model, any professional talks about these things and destigmatizes them. I think that that's incredible. But I will say that [00:13:00] what's funny to me sometimes is that some of the names out there, they really, you know, they couch it or they say, Hey, I know someone who really suffered, right? And I just, I wanna be a mouthpiece. Which again, it's incredible. I'm not, I'm not diminishing that, but I don't see a ton of people who put their name and face on that and say, yeah, it was me. Like, I mean, that's not a really flattering, like, sexy thing to share about oneself. But it's true. And I think that if people don't see like these very real people where I'm, I wasn't a perfect person then and I wasn't a perfect person now, but hopefully showing the true human side is of value to, you know, others out there who are looking for that connection.

And so I appreciate you bearing with me during my disclaimer, but that's, that's just kind of where all of my projects come from. 

So we have Rethinking Residency. I [00:14:00] created and host the podcast Promising Young Surgeon, which comes out every single Tuesday. And we just, we kick around these ideas. We've brought on so many brilliant different people, and importantly, many people not in medicine, 'cause I think that one thing that matters a lot to me and that I think I bring to the table is I do believe in like the cross industry learning. And so when we are able to, you know, of course connect with people from tech, there's so much that like other industries are doing right, where even medicine is behind the eight ball. And so why not hear from, you know, brilliant people who have made it work. It's like we don't have to reinvent the wheel, but we do need the wheel to be better than it is now for, for, you know, I think all of our, our physicians. 

And one example of that that I would use is, you know, the rockstar surgeon, right? Where classically they say, yeah, that guy's an asshole, but he has great hands, you know, and I know that you guys deal with [00:15:00] rockstar coders and I'd love to hear, you know, if things are changing or, or where they're at, or what works for that. I hope that the days are numbered for those rockstar assholes.

Nicole Huesman: Absolutely. And I couldn't agree with you more as I'm, I'm sitting here nodding right, going, yes. It, it, gosh, you took the words right outta my mouth when you said, you know, from my industry rockstar coders that they're treated as these gods and they do wonderful things, and I, and I don't wanna take that away from them, but at the same time, there needs to be civility and respect for all of us. We all bring different skill sets to the table. Important skillsets, right? And so it, it shouldn't be, Oh wow, you know, he's a rockstar coder, can't touch that, right? And that they get away with being [00:16:00] so rude and disrespectful. 

Frances Mei Hardin: And I think that that's really tough. And one of the reasons why, honestly, and again, like you know. I am more of an edgy person. I don't think that I could smooth out all the edges if I wanted to. I actually have tried for decades now. I, you know, I'm like, we'll, let this lie. Like I'm just, I'm a little bit more of an edgy person, and one way that that plays out is that I get it, right? When people, people feel like at work, so from the surgeon standpoint, you know, you feel like people are giving you the wrong instruments, right? That could just drive you batty. And you might be, like, I want to chastise this person. I get that inclination, like I get why somebody would feel that way. Maybe logically. But guess what? I don't do it and I don't do it because I have a pretty strong personal ethical code, and I don't think that that's acceptable in the workplace. But as you can imagine, that drove me quadrupling crazy [00:17:00] when other people were doing it. I was like, you know, if you guys are insinuating, which you are by your actions that we're allowed to say and do anything at work, I'll share some of my feedback, which is going to be scathing. I think that it's really hard to just accept that behavior, especially when, you know, I squash that continuously because I think that that's important and because I think it has to be that way for the workplace to be professional. 

What I will say, and I don't know how much this is true for a coder on a team, but people will use, and this is something that like, I think it's important for patients to hear and be aware of where people are like, so would you rather have the asshole surgeon who has the best hands? Or would you rather have a really, really good surgeon? Completely solid. They're 95th percentile instead of 99th percentile. But they are a pleasant person. They're professional. Their team likes to work with them. I will tell you, it's not even a question, and I would only pick the [00:18:00] second one, and here's why. Because over the years I've seen so many versions of this. People make more mistakes when they're terrified, and they are terrified of some of these doctors. So you may be, you know, you may have this doctor whose hands are the best in the world, but guess what? Surgery's a team sport. Like there's an assist. I mean, there's a scrub. So if everyone's terrified and dropping things, contaminating them, making errors they wouldn't normally make, I think that that's to the detriment of the patient. So I also think that we're glazing over some of this, like, well, he just has the best hands. It's like. We're, we're very team-based these days. You don't operate in a vacuum. I don't know if you can code in a vacuum. It may be less team-based.

Nicole Huesman: You know, we do talk about in tech communities that there are so many different skill sets that are very valuable that make up a healthy [00:19:00] and thriving community. And to allow rockstar coders then, like you said, to normalize rude behavior in, in the workplace, it just leads to toxic work culture. And, and we know, right, we know that that's not, in the long run, is not productive for really anyone involved. 

I know that you've mentioned the importance of creating a a softer world for the next generation of surgeons. What do you think are some changes that are needed in your field?

Frances Mei Hardin: A lot of what I'm positing and what I travel to medical schools to teach, go and teach to residents, put on my website are resources for the, the trainee, the doctor, the person to help themselves. It's for like the young professional or this [00:20:00] person who maybe works in a toxic work environment. How can you fortify yourself and how can you protect yourself and how can you get out unscathed? And people will, rightfully, understandably, they'll say, Why aren't you fixing the bullies? Why don't you fix the person who's perpetrating all these problems, the toxic workplace environment, things like that. And the answer is, if I knew how to make a bully not be a bully, or if I had that power, you know, all my problems would've been solved like eight years ago. That's the reality, right?

 There is something that is still genuinely of value and it's very empowering, which I think I can give, and I'm an expert at that because I myself, like I said, when I was mid fourth year, I had a year and a half to, to run out the clock, and I was like, at rock bottom. I was like, I don't really you know, see a path forward. That's where I was coming from. And then with the help of, you know, my [00:21:00] therapist, my partner, my friends, extreme dedicated work and you know, support, I was able to run out the clock for 18 months. 

 In medical school and residency training fellowship, there's just this element for a lot of us that's like, just grit your teeth and then you'll arrive at the next thing and everything will be perfect. And what has allowed me to expand a lot of, like, my curriculum and the resources that I've developed is that I also, I then became an attending, right? That's a success story. I, I have a thriving practice, and guess what? The problems did not evaporate. 

 I talk to younger people and I would not advise them, Hey, just white knuckle it until you're an attending. There were so many people who said, you're attending life. I mean, it's just gonna be great. It's gonna be so much better than residency. All the problems will be worth it. All the abuse you endure will be worth it. And I personally don't feel that way, and I don't think that that's amazing advice either to be [00:22:00] giving the next generation.

Nicole Huesman: I couldn't agree with you more. So I, I too went through and experienced a toxic work culture in the tech industry. Probably no surprise. And I too would give the same advice that, you know, I think I just grinned and beared it. And, and just saw myself through it. But what ended up happening was that, or the way that it manifested was in my health issues, right? And stress, stress can do that. 

One of the things that I think is so beautiful about what you're doing is that I feel like there are always ways that we can give back. There are always ways that we can nurture the next generation. And whether you're doing that through Rethinking Residency or you're doing that through Promising Young [00:23:00] Surgeon, there are so many different ways that you're bringing this to light, such that the next generation, it doesn't just have to grin and bear it, you know? 

And, and and on my end, I, I think I am, you know, doing much the same. I'm at a point now where I do want to give back and really say to that next generation, you actually don't have to put up with this, right? You actually, you know, let's all work together to create a better environment. 

Frances Mei Hardin: I have a quote that I love that I have posted up here, so I'm reading off my wall: I decided to reimagine my survival as a creative act.

Nicole Huesman: Wow. I love that. I love that. 

Frances Mei Hardin: Yeah, I have it posted up. Yeah, I have a whole quote wall, but that one I really, with what we're discussing now, I think of that.

Nicole Huesman: It is, it's what can you take from your experiences and think about what you've [00:24:00] learned and how can you pass that on as a learning to, to someone else who might benefit from it?

Frances Mei Hardin: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole Huesman: Absolutely. So, I understand that, are you in the process of writing a memoir?

Frances Mei Hardin: Yes, I am. 

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. I would love to hear more about that.

Frances Mei Hardin: Oh, thank you so much for asking. You know it, that is like one of the biggest joys that I have had in 2024, and I'm excited to see where it goes in 2025. The memoir is called Surgeon on the Edge, and it has been very healing to go through the whole process.

Number one, learning to write. Of course, I'm extremely competent and efficient at writing operative notes and clinic notes and things like that, but it really, it has like, expanded a whole other part of my brain to work on creative writing. [00:25:00] This is a literary nonfiction genre, so I, I like it. It, it's very authentic. 

I, as an attending, showed up at a hypnotist garage, and what I said to them, like at the first session, like right off the bat I was like, look, I had a kind of traumatic residency experience. I'm having difficulty working in a hospital because of all the trauma associated and things like that. And so I said, you know, look, I, and I think it's a direct result of that and I just am asking you to help me, you know, like be less activated by all of it. Just kind of heal from it. Like, I, I want the shortcut. I want whatever magic occurs, you know, in the hypnotist garage. Please give it to me. And I want that to happen.

And you know what's so funny? I will tell you, this is one of the first things she told me on the first day. She was like, yeah, absolutely. You know, [00:26:00] let's, let's talk, let's do this. Let's work on it. And she said, it's rarely about what people initially think it's about. 

And so the memoir has been this like really beautiful way of looking at all the puzzle pieces of my life and not just, even though maybe this is the story I told myself four years ago, it's not accurate that like a brilliant angel showed up to residency training. Me. I would be the brilliant angel, you know, showed up and then residency training was bad and they were like bad guys at it. And I'm the protagonist. That's not a very good story and it's also not true. So I really, I love that the memoir offers this like holistic and much more truthful look. 

So this is another one. It's from my quote wall, but it's from Day at Night. And this is Ray Bradbury doing an interview where he says, "Don't think. You must never think at the [00:27:00] typewriter. You must feel, and then your intellect is always buried in that feeling. You do a lot of thinking away from the typewriter, but at the typewriter you should be living. It should be a living experience. The worst thing you do when you think is lie. You can make up reasons that are not true for the things that you did, and what you're trying to do as a creative person is surprise yourself. Find out who you really are and try not to lie. Try to tell the truth all the time." 

 That's not a skill or a perspective I ever encountered in, you know, so many 30 years of STEM-heavy education. I do think that doctors specifically are a group of people who would really benefit from like this bootcamp because all of us are trained from such an early age to be obsessed with university titles, accolades, publications, number of publications, all these things we're just taught to be obsessed with. 

I just think that a lot of academics, a lot of [00:28:00] doctors, they are caught in that, that web of lies that we tell ourselves about ourselves.

And so I'm, I'm really, I, I'm grateful. I'm grateful to have like, slightly poked my head out of the matrix to say, okay, I, I want to know myself much more authentically.

Nicole Huesman: It's so important. I know it has been important to me. It's what makes me deeply happy is, is living authentically, instead of, as we said before, instead of grinning and bearing it, to really be in touch with who we truly are and to live from that core.

Frances Mei Hardin: Greening and bearing it like you alluded to it, it does actually make people ill. I think not just mentally, but also physically and, and I mean, you know, there's [00:29:00] interesting research that people are putting out regarding like autoimmune disease, which of course we all know is more prevalent in women than men, and you know, there's interesting ties to things in their past or that they've put up with or maybe grinned and beared, right, and that now manifest as true pathology.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Yeah. So, Frances Mei, you have done so many different absolutely incredible things. What do you think has been for you, either the most meaningful or the most rewarding?

Frances Mei Hardin: I think the most meaningful for me, for me to be a better person and a more mature person and a better friend and a better partner, you know, and a better daughter, the memoir has been a great vehicle for all of that 'cause I just had to get to know myself better and I had to own my own stuff [00:30:00] better. 

In terms of what's been rewarding, every single time that any person, you know, the work resonates with them, whether it's Promising Young Surgeon or Rethinking Residency, that is enormously meaningful. When I first made Rethinking Residency, and the website was actually made by my husband who is in digital marketing, he's an SEO specialist, we said, if this helps one person, like literally one resident who was in the position that I was in, then we would consider it a win. And I think that we've succeeded at that because that, that was the bar that we set for this thing that we started spending all of our free time on, and yeah, it's been, that's been very rewarding. 

Nicole Huesman: That's a great segue into how, success is such a loaded word, how would you define success for yourself and how has that evolved over time?[00:31:00] 

Frances Mei Hardin: I definitely used to be guilty of the, the classic and academic, you know, definitions of success, which are like the prestige of the degree or the education or the institution or the publication, things like that. And I just, I didn't know better at the time. I mean, I wish I did. You know, of course if I could do like the ghosts of Christmas past, like I have so many things to warn, like 10-year-old me about. But the reality is I lived in that world and I really believed in that definition of success. And I think that I was in the rat race and I stayed in the rat race, and I held that rigid definition until it almost killed me. 

And so obviously now for some personal and health reasons, I have had to completely change my definition and now it's much more of [00:32:00] this, you know, as you were mentioning, the authentic life, which health, peace, like these, these words were not even in my vocabulary. And you know, that that may be true for a lot of women in their twenties. You know, I was like, I'm gonna live forever and. I'll have peace when I'm dead, you know? And I just, I would say, you know, now I'm 33. That is all flipped on its head in part because of some really substantial health issues that I've dealt with after residency.

So again, when we talk about, oh, as an attending, your life will just like suddenly be amazing. Well, guess what? I got hit with very significant health issues. They were really things that had manifested back in residency that I ignored symptoms of for years. And so now we're here, you know, and it just yeah, I think health and peace would really be core for me. 

Nicole Huesman: What advice would you have for, you mentioned 10-year-old you and some of the things that you've warned her about. [00:33:00] What, what advice would you have for 10-year-old you or for other, other women?

Frances Mei Hardin: The importance of knowing yourself cannot be overstated. Because what happens is we get on this conveyor belt pretty early on, some of us at 16, 18, where, okay, we say we're gonna do this huge great undertaking of becoming a surgeon, right? And you get on the conveyor belt. You don't have to know who you are, you absolutely don't. I would say that it's not like modeled for us. It's not overtly taught to us, and in fact, it's almost discouraged because somebody who maybe really knows themselves and has an identity outside of medicine, that person's gonna be at a disadvantage. People will question your commitment. I would really recommend to every single person, Hey, it's in your best interest to know yourself. Because even when we think about this from like the young physician mental health standpoint, I think it's all related. And identity is this [00:34:00] important piece where paradoxically, the system, the institution, the culture of training, they do not want you to have an identity. But what's funny is that's one of the only things that can be protective, right? Because if you are in training, you're on this like 10 plus year long ride and conveyor belt and education journey, and you have a setback, right? 

 Those setbacks, when your entire identity is resident physician, those setbacks are a threat to your life. And so it's just ironic because there are people who are like, you know, if you have a setback, just like be resilient. Just like of course roll with it. 

But it's like we don't give those young people any other parts to their identity. So you, you gotta look at it. I think you can look at that from like the scientific common sense approach. Like this is their whole identity and maybe this really scathing review from an attending, that's an attack on their entire identity. So it [00:35:00] may have these intense, very intense ramifications in a way where a person with a three-dimensional life, you know, even if they get maybe a bad annual review at work, I'm sure it's disappointing to anyone who experiences that, but it, it may not be devastating the way that it can be for us as physicians.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Wow. Wow. So as we wrap up. I'd love to hear what She Lights the Way means to you.

Frances Mei Hardin: I love it. I, I so admire and I love what you're doing. I love the cross-industry talk because I do feel like we deal with so many just slightly different flavors of the same problem. You know, I think that She Lights the Way, ultimately, the reality is that I only really had the courage to speak publicly on these topics because some of my great mentors, you know, did so, and even if it's in a smaller way, [00:36:00] you know, you just, you hear one woman share, maybe even just a pearl from her story and then you think, well, it seems like she didn't get struck by lightning, you know, just struck down when she shared that. So maybe then the wheels start to turn and we say, I may be comfortable to share as well.

Nicole Huesman: Are there any thoughts that you'd like to leave our audience with?

Frances Mei Hardin: Absolutely. Well, and I'm sure you can tell by now I'm such a quotes person, and so I, I really do love to have like a mantra or an inspiring quote, but one that has really resonated with me recently, and I, I definitely, I hope that your listeners also are kind of examining themselves and, and their lives. This Brianna Weist quote is: "When you start asking for a bigger life, you cannot keep begging for a smaller one to stay."

Nicole Huesman: And what a [00:37:00] wonderful place to leave our conversation. I cannot tell you how wonderful it has been that that we've been connected in this way and that you are a part of that She Lights the Way community. Thank you so much for being here.

Frances Mei Hardin: Thank you so much for having me, Nicole.