Nicole Huesman: So, welcome to this debut episode of She Lights the Way.

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah.

Nicole Huesman: Yay!

Jennifer Cloer: I'm so excited to be here.

Nicole Huesman: I'm so excited to have you here. We've known each other for so long, so long.

Jennifer Cloer: I know. I can't believe it. It's crazy and I'm so excited to see you doing such an amazing project. So exciting!

Nicole Huesman: Oh, thank you.

Jennifer Cloer: Kudos to you. It's important work and I can't wait to listen to the whole series.

Nicole Huesman: Oh, gosh. Well, so let's dive in. We overlapped, I think, at Tektronix and then, you know, got to know each other, wow, I feel like we got to really know each other so much better as we've both been working in the open source community.

Jennifer Cloer: Definitely. Definitely.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. And I know I refer to that as a monolithic thing. And of course it's not, but so many different communities. Can you tell us a little bit about you?

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah, sure. Well, you were talking about kind of our career journey. I did start my career at Tektronix. I had earned a Journalism degree from the University of Oregon and wanted to leave Eugene, but stay somewhat local. So Tektronix was in Portland, moved to Portland and worked there for three or four years and then slowly made my way into the open source community.

I got involved with the Linux Foundation long before it was the Linux Foundation. It used to be known as Open Source Development Labs. And I worked on site there supporting their PR work. And when they merged with the Free Standards Group to become the Linux Foundation, I was on the founding team at the Linux Foundation as we built it from the ground up. So, a long history there.

And then in 2016, 2017, I started my own business, Story Changes Culture. And, you know, yeah, the focus has always really been on elevating, inspiring, disruptive, transformative leaders, whether they be open source creators, women in tech doing amazing and beautiful things, founders, entrepreneurs, or even executives within large companies.

One of the things that we have in common is storytelling and I feel like my experience has really been as a storyteller at the intersection of humanity and technology.

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah. Right.

Nicole Huesman: Right?

Jennifer Cloer: Very much.

Nicole Huesman: So often we talk about technology, but not the people behind the technology.

Jennifer Cloer: And yeah, what's really more interesting than the people who are building the technology. And I think one of the things I learned, one of the things I skipped over in my career trajectory because it was, I guess, it was a side project, but the Chasing Grace project, which was the docuseries about women in tech. Three episodes. But so often those stories, women's stories about building technology, supporting technology, communities aren't told. We're seeing them told more and more, and that's encouraging, but they still are really under-told.

And so, that in particular has been of great interest, and I even based my consulting business on trying to work with more and more female leaders because I feel like the more we elevate their stories, it increases their profile and can increase their career opportunities, but it also sets the tone and the example for women who are up-and-coming to see that there are women in these positions doing interesting things, building technology, leading teams, and they can become, you know, those positions are there for them as well. So anyways, yeah, the people behind the technology is really what interests me. Sure.

Nicole Huesman: And I so love that. Could you talk a little bit about your inspiration for the Chasing Grace project?

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, inspiration? I was angry. I was angry. And, you know, I got the privilege of interviewing Cheryl Strayed, a pretty famous author. She wrote the memoir, Wild. I interviewed her on stage during one of the premieres for Chasing Grace, and I asked her about anger and when we're feeling frustrated by the environments in which women are holding space and she said, anger's great because it's a catalyst, right? And it was certainly a catalyst for, it's a good catalyst, but you need to learn how to harness that anger because you don't want it to get the best of you. But yeah, you know, I was angry. I was experiencing and witnessing a lot of things happening to women in my communities and organizations that didn't seem quite right.

I'd been around long enough that I really started to take note. And at that time, Ellen Pao had lost her lawsuit against Kleiner Perkins, the large VC firm in the valley for sexual harassment and discrimination, and I think it was more powerful for her to lose than if she would have won because when she lost, I think we were all so shocked that she lost. And it made us angry, like, wait a minute, no one's paying attention. And then there was a pretty famous U. S. election that happened and the following women's march that I participated in. And I just had a lot of angst and inspiration.

And it was all while I was starting my own company, so I also was creating more space to work on things that matter to me. And we can talk more about that because I think that's very empowering if you have that opportunity, whether it's in a job or starting a business or whatever it is to have that space to work on projects that have impact that matter to you.

But the combination of that inspiration and that angst led me to do it. I just had an amazing amount of energy that I put into it. I look back now and I think how much work that took, it was incredible. And I was just on this manic spree for three years doing that project, but it paid off and I feel really good about that work. But it was a little bit of anger and inspiration and it was a lot of the events taking place in the industry and in our culture at large.

Nicole Huesman: And it's such amazing work. For listeners who haven't had an opportunity to check that out. I know there are some trailers ...

Jennifer Cloer: There's some trailers and some clips, yeah, on my Vimeo channel. We've never posted the full episodes online ‘cause they are by screening appointment only. But yeah, we wrapped up all three episodes in 2020 when we could no longer film as you can imagine. But yeah, there's a number of clips online that hopefully people can get a sense for the project.

Nicole Huesman: You know, it's interesting because as far as we've come in elevating women, whether it's in the tech industry or in their chosen fields, it feels like there's still so much to do. And I think you and I talked earlier about, wow, some of the diversity, equity, and inclusion projects, programs and positions that are being impacted. So, it feels like we need to continue to elevate women.

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah, we did talk about that and there are a number of DEI initiatives programs that have been canceled or cut at a number of different organizations, academia, companies, and there's a lot of different reasons for that. Regardless of what the reasons are, they're being cut.

We need people telling the stories of these women, young women, up-and-coming women in their careers, women who have been around a long time. Like, I feel like I'm starting to be one of those women. We still are just underrepresented in our industry, across industries. We're still just hugely underrepresented, yet we do so much of the work in these industries and it's become quite kind of a cliche example, but the Hidden Figures story is a really great example of these women who were fundamental in this massive project in our history, and their story wasn't told for 50 plus years or something. And it matters. Telling and hearing and seeing those stories matters because, again, we don't feel as alone when we see that.

You know, a lot of women I talked to when I was doing the project and now with our Story Changes Culture newsletter, they're inside large companies, and they're oftentimes still the only woman on the team, especially in the tech space, especially in engineering-heavy companies, and they don't think there's any other women in engineering, for example. And then they realize one day because they're invited to a calendar invite, there's another woman on the calendar invite and they're like, wow, wait a minute, there's other women here. So, it makes them feel less alone, which makes them feel empowered to bring up new ideas, to challenge and debate with people, and for better ideas.

When you're the minority, you don't really feel empowered to do that. But when the stories are told, you realize you're not necessarily minority. There's women, there's other women out there. We just need to see them. We need to hear from them and see them.

Nicole Huesman: Right. Right. You know, I was listening to a podcast from Julia Louis Dreyfus called Wiser Than Me.

Jennifer Cloer: Wiser Than Me. Yes.

Nicole Huesman: Yes. I love that, you know, and one of the things that occurred to me was, what about all of the women who are not as well-known, sort of these unsung voices? We don't know of them, but they are doing impactful work in their own fields or in their own industries.

Jennifer Cloer: Well, and you know, one thing I don't think we talk about enough is the role of women in our society, right? And the pandemic really demonstrated that. Women are the primary caregivers, usually, usually not always, but oftentimes the primary caregivers to children and their families. And oftentimes if there's elder parents, women take the lead. And so, that's why so many women left the workforce during the pandemic. But it's also why I think we see underrepresentation of women in industries. It's not just that some of these industries are very brutal to work in and some women get burned out and decide to leave or never enter in the first place.

But, you know, women play such a fundamental role in our society, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't also, you know, have the opportunity to pursue careers and thrive in their careers. And we know that's true because we know so many women who do that, you know?

And I think that brings up the interesting topic about, you know, leaning in and you can have it all. I think that that is a bunch of bullshit. I don't think that anybody, man or woman or anyone else can have it all right. That's just not really realistic.

Nicole Huesman: That's so true.

Jennifer Cloer: But that doesn't mean, again, that women can't be mothers and wives and caretakers for family members, but also have a thriving career. It means that we have to rethink the workplace. It's not just to make more room for women because that's the right thing to do. It's because we need women in our workplaces, bringing new perspectives, building interesting things, innovating. And the only way that we can bring more women to the workplace is to make those workplaces more inclusive. So that there is flexible work. So that there are part-time jobs that have as much weight as a full-time job. And so many more things that, you know, lots of other amazing women are doing research on. Melinda Gates is one example. She's doing a lot of amazing work with these particular issues and funding research and trying to really make a difference with the way that we approach work and the workplace.

And, you know, it's not just for women, it's for all kinds of people from different walks of life that need different types of work experiences. There's so much there.

Nicole Huesman: There is so much there. And it feels like the pandemic has provided us with a unique opportunity to be able to rethink the workplace or, you know, the opportunities that are out there.

Jennifer Cloer: I agree. If you can say anything good came with the pandemic, I guess that's one of them because I see it even in my own day-to-day work. The expectations about response time and meeting availability and, you know, online in your chat window, like all of those things are different now. And I think that's a very positive trend, right?

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. And the way that we work, I think, has really changed during the pandemic. As you know, I'm a mother of a 13-year-old, well, 13-year-old now, so we've got a teenager in the house!

Jennifer Cloer: That's nuts. Yeah.

Nicole Huesman: I should also say that he struggles with ADHD. And back then, during the pandemic, what I found myself doing was designing a curriculum, working with him through that curriculum, and making sure that he didn't fall behind.

Jennifer Cloer: Mm hmm. Right.

Nicole Huesman: To do that required that I balance between work and really, you know, helping him. And so, my workday changed, right? And I was able to, yes, get those really important things at work done. And I was also able to be of support to him through things.

Jennifer Cloer: I love that. I didn't know that. And let's just take a minute to think about that. That's a gift that you were able to give him and yourself. I love that the pandemic gave you that moment to be able to do that. That's beautiful. And that is exactly the types of things that I hope we can create more space for, particularly for women, but also for fathers as well. To have that, the type of workplace culture that allows for that.

You know, it's not, it's not how much you work, it's how you work, right? And I think when we get to a shift, when we get to that shift collectively, I think there's lots of people that have already gotten there, but when we get to that shift collectively, we just become a more inclusive culture.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Jennifer, what has been one of the things you're proudest of?

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah, you know, of course, the Chasing Grace project comes to mind first of all, right? I created it out of nowhere. You know, out of my own kind of experiences and the experiences that I was observing with friends and colleagues and created something that really, I feel like had an impact. We did three episodes over the course of three years.

We screened it all over the world, including on the SNL stage at 30Rock as well as in Los Angeles, the Dynasty Typewriter, which is a famous theater there, with special guest Cheryl Strayed, as I mentioned, and we created and built a community from scratch. I knew what open source community building was like, but this was a whole other ball game and it was very organic. People were inspired by the work. We didn't shy away from conflict and adversity, which I think a lot of women connected to.

I'm also really proud of starting my own business. I've been doing it now seven years and, you know, being able to both consult and work with clients and often working with female founders and executives, but also creating space within that business for my media platform, which is the Story Changes Culture newsletter and book club and our annual retreat and our Elevate program, all of things that are aimed at elevating and creating community for women in tech and women in media. Because when you start a business, you kind of have the opportunity to design it the way you want. So, I'm really proud of that.

And I will just say, I'm really proud of the work I did at Linux Foundation too. I was one of five that kind of started at the foundation. So, I was an individual contributor in the comms function and I built a team of 30 people, and you know, that was one of those moments that you mentioned where in the early days, we just felt like badasses. It was fun. It was interesting. We were having an impact and doing interesting work. And I'm really proud of the work we did there.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. You know, we've talked about the Chasing Grace project, which for me was so moving. Talking about real conversations and not shying away from the tough stuff, right?

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah.

Nicole Huesman: So, one of the things that inspired She Lights the Way has been the way that I felt going through and experiencing Chasing Grace.

Jennifer Cloer: Hmm. That's wonderful, Nicole. Thank you. I'm so glad. I mean, that means the project worked, right? Because it created an emotional response in you and you went on to create this thing. And I mean, that's, that's exactly what we wanted to do. So that's beautiful.

Nicole Huesman: Oh, it really did. And at this point in my career, paying it forward, right? We talk about women helping women and being committed to elevating women wherever they are, right, whatever they're working on. Being able to carry that forth, to provide support in that way for them to be able to share their unique stories and unique perspectives.

I think that we all benefit from that. I was thinking about who benefits from these stories. And I actually think, by the way, it actually goes beyond just us women. But there are those of us who have reached this point in our careers who have stories and experiences and insights to share. And then there's that next generation of women who are following in our footsteps, and how can we provide them with the knowledge we wish we had back when we were entering our own careers, right?

Jennifer Cloer: Yeah. It's interesting. I think that we all take something from the generation and generations that come before us, but certainly from the generation that comes directly before us. I think, you know, when I get frustrated about progress being made or progress being too slow, I think about my grandmother or my mother and how different my experience is from theirs. And my mom's was very different from my grandmother's, right? So, with every generation, we do see progress. We see steps backwards too. I think we know that from the Roe v. Wade decision, for example. You know, we see steps backwards. But overall, even if it's one step backwards, two steps forward, we're making progress.

And I think that the women coming up, the millennials, the Gen Zers, because I'm speaking as a Gen Xer, I think they're taking notice because they are approaching work very differently. Whether it's in television and film, like The Morning Show or Wiser Than Me, you know, I think if women, young women, are listening to these things, it's resonating to some degree. And again, it's because we know they're changing, I mean, they are changing the way we work. They're changing the workplace. Their expectations are different. And good for them. Thank goodness, because things do need to change and they're doing a lot of positive things in the right direction. So, if our stories even have a little impact, that's great. That's great.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. So, now sitting, sitting where we do, what is some of the advice, what are some of the lessons learned and some of the advice you would have for others?

Jennifer Cloer: Oh boy. How much time do we have?

Nicole Huesman: That's a loaded question, isn't it? I mean, there's so much.

Jennifer Cloer: You know, when I was kind of rising into a real, you know, PR, you know, mover and shaker, at one point in my career, I was in an agency and there was our boss, the owner of the agency, who was promoting everyone into leads, and he wanted to promote me into a lead. And I was the only woman. He was promoting me and three other men into these lead positions who would run these teams within the agency.

And I declined the promotion because I said, I didn't think I was ready. So, he offered it to me and what a great opportunity. And was I a hundred percent ready? Probably not. But he was willing to give me that opportunity. And I said, I'm not ready for that opportunity. Let's talk again in six months.

And, you know, I look back on that and it's so representative of what we hear so often where women think they have to check all the boxes to qualify for applying for a job or whatever. It was also a confidence issue, right? And I don't know if it's because I thought I'd be compared to these three men who were all quite a bit older than me at the time. So, I was young, I was younger than all of them, and I was a woman. And I look back now, and I want to shake my previous self and say, take it! And six months later, he gave it to me, but I was six months behind, right? I'd held myself back six months.

So, you know, that always reminds me to give this advice to anyone who asks for advice: You don't have to know everything to take the next leap. And don't be afraid to take the leaps. Because for example, fast forward in my career to starting my own business, I didn't know everything I needed to know about running my own business. Or exactly how I would design it. But I took the leap and it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made. When I look back at risks and leaps that I took, these are always things that were the best, and I never regret those things.

So that would be my, mine. I have so many others, but I'll stop there. Nicole, what's yours?

Nicole Huesman: Oh, wow. So, okay. You know, when I thought about this, it's: know your strengths and how they complement the place that you're in, the space that you're in.

When I was first diving into open source and the open source community, one of the folks that you and I both know, Nithya Ruff, I remember being at dinner with Nithya and the person who is now my husband. And I remember a conversation where I said, well, you know, I'm the least technical one at this table. And that was a pivotal moment for me because one of the things that both Nithya and Guy, my husband now, said was, we need people like you, we need people who can translate what is being written in the code into deeper meaning for people who don't understand code, and translating that into stories with impact and meaning.

So, to know your strengths and to appreciate your strengths.

Jennifer Cloer: And the power of your community seeing you, right? They saw that in you and playing that back to you because it kind of took that, right? I just love that because I worked with you prior to and after that, and it was pivotal because you completely stepped into your power after that. I saw you light up and, and it's almost like you've got your open source community badge. You're like, I am one of us, right? Like, I saw that in you and you went on to do even more amazing things. You were already doing those things, but you went on to go deeper, stronger. And so, sharing your truth as you believed it to be at that dinner, and then having your colleagues play back, friends and colleagues, say, you know, wait, this is what we see. That's another example of the power of storytelling in a different kind of way.

Nicole Huesman: It gave me the permission, if I can call it that, to really know what I could contribute.

Jennifer Cloer: Absolutely. Yes. That's a good piece of advice.

Nicole Huesman: Excellent. So, Jennifer, I know success means so many different things to so many different people. What does success mean to you?

Jennifer Cloer: I've done a lot of thinking about this in recent years, and it really comes down to impact. Am I having an impact on my life? Am I able to provide for myself and live the life that I want to live? And is it impacting others in a positive way that I can measure in some way.

We talked about the Chasing Grace project. You know, I love to talk about the screenings that we hosted, but frankly, the impact was in the women who still reach out to me today and thank me for the work because it's had an impact on their career. They asked for a promotion they wouldn't have otherwise asked for. They changed jobs because they weren't getting what they needed. They confronted a boss who was treating them unfairly in meetings. That is impact and that's really, it's like, I just really am addicted to that now. So, I'm always looking for opportunities to do that.

And then I guess wellness, right? Wellness in terms of, am I taking care of myself? Am I focused on the right things and the right people in my life? I think, you know, I went through a number of years working very, very hard and burning out. And you know, I just discounted my health and my wellness. And I don't just mean not coming down with a cold or the flu. I mean, taking care of myself, exercising, and eating right, and taking time for stillness, and time in nature. These things really matter for our overall human experience.

And so, I think success is, if I had to summarize it, is impact and wellness.

Nicole Huesman: And you've talked about making sacrifices, right? And sacrificing your health, which, no question, I definitely fit into that, right? And, you know, one of the things that we talked about, you know, advice to others would be really setting those boundaries and sticking to them.

Jennifer Cloer: And I think I have a lot of hope because I think as we were talking about generational change and generational cultural change, I think we're headed in the right direction. If you think about, you know, our mothers kind of were able to enter the workforce. Prior to that, most women had to stay home and care of the family. So, we saw that happen just barely as we were coming of age, and then we felt it was such an exciting thing to be able to be in careers. I think we went hard. We went really hard and we're like, you know, we need to earn our right to be here. You know, and, and just went so hard. And now I think millennials, and even more so, Gen Zers, they kind of get it. They saw their moms burnout, right? They saw the financial crisis of 2007. They saw all of these things that I think had an impact on the way they see the workplace. And like I said, they're changing the rules in a positive way. And I'm optimistic based on that. But it's always interesting to look at different generations and how it might be impacting culture as we continue to live out these amazing, crazy years.

Nicole Huesman: Absolutely. So, Jennifer, what's next for you?

Jennifer Cloer: Oh, what's next for me? Well, I'm continuing to, you know, run my business, the Story Changes Culture consulting firm, where we work with founders and, increasingly, female founders, increasingly more women in all of my engagements, which is fantastic to see, and always looking for more inspiring and disruptive women to work with.

But continuing to grow the Chasing Grace turned Story Changes Culture community. I mentioned that we have this amazing organic community that kind of grew around the Chasing Grace project. When the pandemic hit, we started the Story Changes Culture community where we brought those women along and we have a monthly newsletter and we host a book club so we can share stories and discuss those stories that help us see into other worlds. I mentioned the retreat we host and the Elevate program where we support efforts and initiatives and projects like yours in different ways.

And then, next chapter for me, I'm looking at writing a book. I won't talk yet about exactly the focus of it, but I'm really starting to dive in there. And, yeah, looking at trying to exercise some more of my creative chops, like I did when I did the Chasing Grace project, like we do with the stories we tell with Story Changes Culture, but in a more long form. Deeper format. So, stay tuned.

Nicole Huesman: Oh, wow. And I will. You do so many amazing things. I am so looking forward to seeing all of that unfold.

Jennifer Cloer: Good. Well, thank you to you too, Nicole. What you're doing is so important and I know it comes from a long intentional thought process of how you can contribute to this conversation and elevate women. And it's such important work. We need as many of us doing it as possible. So, thank you for your work.

Nicole Huesman: So, great segue! As we close, can you talk about what She Lights the Way means to you?

Jennifer Cloer: I love the name you've chosen for the project because to me, I envision you or a number of women, right, saying, let's go, this way, the promised land is this way, right? You've got your torch and you're lighting the way down the dark tunnel saying, come with me. In that spirit of women supporting women. And so, that's what it means to me is women supporting women, showing each other the way forward. And I just love that. And I love that you're exploring stories across industries. I think, what I imagine, I don't know, I'm so excited to learn as I listen to the series, but that so many of our experiences are common, no matter the industry, you know, the positive and the adversity we face. But I'm so excited to hear those different experiences and find the commonalities as well as things I can learn.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. And to share the insights and to just really take those insights and do something with them?

Jennifer Cloer: Yes, yes, absolutely. I love that.

Nicole Huesman: Thank you so much for being on today's program. I can't thank you enough for the inspiration that you've given to me and for sharing your time, your energy, and your passion and your insights with us today.

Jennifer Cloer: My pleasure, Nicole. Thanks for having me.