Naomi Ceder: I have, I have, ironically a, a perspective on really being an imposter. I was an imposter for more than half of my life. And you know, it's, it's, it's one of these ironies of being trans that you're an imposter. And when you stop being an imposter, that's when everybody thinks you're fake.

Imposter Syndrome is quite often cast as some sort of moral failing on the part of the person who has it, and it is never that Imposter Syndrome is a person who has internalized society telling them that they're worthless in one way or another. It's not that they are worthless. It's that they have internalized, whether it's girls are bad at math or whatever it might be, it's not anything other than that sort of [00:01:00] internalized doubt that has was is sort of created by people not accepting you in the first place. It's a defensive mechanism.

***

Nicole Huesman: Welcome back, friends. I'm so honored to bring you my conversation with Naomi Cedar, a true pioneer in the Python software community. We explore her journey from her early days teaching Python to her current projects in retirement. She's worn so many hats over the years: educator, author, leader, advocate. She's a former chair of the Python Software Foundation and the founder of Transcode, a hackday focused on drawing attention to trans and non-binary issues. Her perspectives on education, thoughts about Imposter Syndrome, vision for a more [00:02:00] inclusive tech community and approach to overcoming challenges offer valuable insights for all of us. So, let's jump in.

Naomi, uh, it's just so wonderful to talk to you today. Can you introduce yourself and just talk about a little bit about, you know, where you are, uh, along your journey, you know, as we sit here today?

Naomi Ceder: I'm Naomi Cedar. I have been in the Python community now for, uh, 23 years, I guess I am currently, uh, retired, um, which means that I get to do my own things. So, um, I am, um, revising my book. I am a technical editor on another book that's in progress, um, with, with a friend of mine, Leticia Portello. We are, um, uh, working on a, uh, series of books called The [00:03:00] Friendly Guides to various things in tech. Leticia wrote the first one, which was a friendly guide to software development and we're, we're trying to get some others in the pipeline for that series.

Nicole Huesman: And how nice that you get to make your own schedule and work on, you know, ah, yeah. The things that, yeah. That matter most to you. That's great.

Naomi Ceder: Indeed.

Nicole Huesman: One of the things that comes to mind for me when you talk about The Friendly Guides is that it seems that you have a passion for, or a focus on, teaching programming for middle school and for high schoolers, particularly Python programming.

Naomi Ceder: For 25 years, I was a, a teacher of high schoolers and some middle schoolers. Actually, I started out teaching Latin in ancient history, uh, and um, in the mid nineties, um, I ended up switching that to being, uh, teaching, uh, [00:04:00] programming, uh, and, and things like that.

And, um, I guess over that amount of time, I came to realize that a lot of traditional teaching is not the most efficient, I think. Sometimes people tend to think teaching is a science. Maybe it is, but it really seems to me largely a black art. People tend to assume a lot of things work that don't work. And particularly as I was, was teaching programming, I, um, I, I tended to experiment and try and test these things out and figure out what actually worked. I was very interested in sort of a, um, a constructivist kind of thing. Let's, let's build our knowledge by doing little experiments and things like that. And so yeah, I became interested in that.

Then when I ended up switching to the business world, it seemed to follow me because we ended up having what seemed to me a large number of conversations where I would argue for something and they would say, [00:05:00] oh, but you're a teacher. And I don't know exactly what that meant, but I got that a lot. So, yeah, I guess so.

Nicole Huesman: I am so interested to hear more about what you found worked as you were teaching high schoolers and middle schoolers.

Naomi Ceder: One of the things that, that I remember most about teaching, particularly middle schoolers to code was, when I was a teacher, I worked at a private school and we made all of the people in the high school take a class that involved some coding, and we also introduced it in the eighth grade as part of their little computer unit. And, and I would teach that in Python and, um, I, um, had, you know, we wrote out our little worksheets and all of our things and, you know, make our, our week of, of playing around with coding, uh, as effective as possible.

And I know one day, one, uh, one girl sort of called me over and she pointed to this whole thing I had written about how to name variables and what was [00:06:00] legal and what was, and she says, do I need to know this or is this just words? And as I sort of thought about it, I'm sort of like, you know, kid. That was just words. Don't worry about it, uh, because of course, if you make an illegal variable name, it will yell at you. So fine. Don't worry about that.

Then I think, later on, the last year that I, I was a teacher, um, I, um, I actually offered a Python elective at the high school level where basically I tipped the, the, the paradigm kind of on its head and it was basically, look, I'm going to show you these two or three things, uh, and then you're all gonna pick something that interests you to do. Um, and, and we're gonna see what we can do. I spent maybe an hour in the course of several weeks actually formally presenting stuff. Otherwise, it was, you need to do this. Let's figure out how to do it and I'll help you if you need it. Uh, and then we went on and they picked things that they wanted to do, which [00:07:00] was really a hoot to tell you the truth. Everybody had a lot of fun. Did they learn an official list of things? No. They really learned things that they needed to know to do their stuff. And there was other stuff that it was still to be explored. Uh, so, you know, that, that kind of drove my philosophy actually.

It was also Kathy Sierra, who was, you know, an influential tech blogger back in the day until she was harassed out of the business. But, uh, she, she coined the phrase just in time learning versus just in case learning. Just in case learning where they lecture you on everything, just in case you might need to know it, and just in time learning where you need to know something. There it is. Now you know it, you do it.

And of course, I, if you're talking about what sticks better, it's not just in case learning that that works. It's the stuff that you used when you needed to know it that sticks. [00:08:00]

Nicole Huesman: Absolutely. Because it would seem to me, in just listening to what you're saying, that you, this would stick with you more because you are, you're learning it. Because it's what interests you, right? Mm-hmm. You've, you asked them to pick something that interested them, um, and you’re, as an individual, you are testing, you're seeing what works, what doesn't work. Mm-hmm. And, and those kinds of skills in curiosity and exploration and discovery are the things that are the lifelong lessons, you know, in how to solve a, any, any kind of an issue later in life, whether it's coding or something else that, that you, we really that …

Naomi Ceder: Yeah. I, I mean, it comes down to motivation. If you, if, if, yes, if you're motivated, you can do almost anything. If [00:09:00] you're not, then almost anything becomes a chore.

Nicole Huesman: So you mentioned, um, you know, teaching for, for many years and then making your, making your way into the business world. How, what was your, what was your path into Python?

Naomi Ceder: That was, that was of course in, in my teaching career. And as I say, we had all of these kids that needed to be taught programming. This was around, um, you know, 2000, 2001. Uh, we were also starting to use Linux. This was when Linux became popular as, as, you know, a solution for a lot of things. Uh, and, um. So I was not only a, a computer teacher, I was the director of technology at our independent school. So I was kind of in charge of everything, the networking, the phones, you name it.

My, my, uh, support specialist and I went to, uh, Linux World, uh, in San Francisco in, in 2021. Uh, and, um. [00:10:00] There was this guy, Guido Van Rossum, who was doing a day-long workshop on this language he had created a few years before: Python. Uh, and it was, it was sort of a niche thing, but it had some buzz. So I took that course and, um, by, by the end of the day, I was, was pretty convinced that if I was going to teach, um, you know, ninth graders, uh, how to code. I wanted to do it in Python rather than in Pascal, which is what we had been using, or heaven forbid, Java, which was the new hot language that everybody seemed to think you needed to know. So I asked Guido some dumb questions, which he patiently answered. Then on the plane home, I started rewriting our curriculum and we were teaching it, uh, a few weeks later. That's the, the advantage of being the director in a small private school is you can kind of move that quickly if you want. Uh, so that was sort of the beginning.

The following [00:11:00] summer, I ended up using, um, Zo, which is a Python-based, uh, web platform of the, of the old days to write the beginnings of a student information system, managing grades and report cards and all of that stuff.

In 2003, they had this conference in Washington, DC the first one called PyCon. So, um, we went to that and we presented a paper and I have been going to PyCons and been part of that community ever since.

Nicole Huesman: When I was at Intel and came to know Python, one of the things that struck me at that point was how welcoming and inclusive the community was, and I think you've been an instrumental, uh, part of making it so. Can you talk a little bit about the Python community and maybe some of the different things that you have done over your [00:12:00] years in the community?

Naomi Ceder: In the early days, the Python community was like most tech communities 20 years ago—pretty heavily male, white. What you would expect. To its credit, it has, uh, worked, uh, pretty continuously to, to evolve into something that is more inclusive, and to give credit where credit is due, I think, um, Guido Van Rossum as sort of the, the, the kind of the, um, intellectual leader of that community has done a lot to promote that.

For me, I mean, I started, um, working on, um, education-based communities, um, within, within Python in, in the first years. We, you know, I and Jeff Elner, who was another teacher, uh, would go to like the national education conferences and, um, sort of pitch Python programming and things like that. And I did [00:13:00] various regional conferences. We organized, you know, a, an informal group at every Python where we got together and traded ideas and things like that.

Sort of related to that, I guess it did kind of come from that, um, I, uh, one year I needed financial support to go to one of those conferences because, um, the budget was short at the school I worked at, and there was no travel money I needed. So, I went to, um, the, the Python Software Foundation, uh, board chair at the time and asked him if I could get a grant. He said, sure, send it to us. We'll consider it. I got the grant. I went to the conference. So then, uh, I said, you know, if there's ever anything I can do to, to help out, let me know. And he said, sure, I'd really love to have a poster session at the next PyCon. So, I said, sure, of course, I will, uh, figure out exactly how a poster session works and try to [00:14:00] put one on. And we did. It was the first thing that I, I really sort of put on, you know, organized at, at a PyCon, um, and I was very happy with it because we got a bunch of people to present some interesting things they were working on, but they were some of them so very happy that they got a chance to do something at PyCon because they felt they were never really going to be up to giving a talk. Some of them were really sort of quiet, retiring types. Some of them felt that they were just never gonna have anything mainstream enough to make it through the competition so that they got, they got their chance. And actually, given the way posters work, I think they, they got more up close and personal time than, uh, they would've giving a talk, you know. Various people from the core developers, whatever, stopped by and talked to them, looked at their poster. So that was, that was a success.

The poster session sort of was right at the time when I was, um, [00:15:00] basically struggling with what I was going to do myself in terms of facing, you know, the reality of being a transgender person in this world. And, um, I think that, you know, as much as it's a culture war issue now, the narrative then was, if possible, even worse in that the narrative that I had always heard growing up was that if you were going to transition, you really needed to leave everything behind. It wasn't even thinkable that you would continue doing the things you had done before. So, it’s like, okay, well I guess I have to do this. I guess I have to leave the Python community. But I decided for my last hurrah that I would organize, um, an education summit.

They had core development summits, and they had web summits and all of these things at PyCon where interesting groups of people, you know, people interested in a common topic would come together and, and, and talk about things. So I thought, okay, education. [00:16:00] And I, I pitched that and I was going to do that as kind of the last thing before I disappeared.

Then, well, things never work out exactly the way we plan. I ended up actually doing my transition much earlier than that, and decided that, um, well, basically, I had to break, you know, break the news to various people that were organizing this was gonna happen and it did not seem to bother anybody really at all. So I decided, well, maybe, maybe that whole narrative is wrong. Maybe I can continue to do things. So yes, we did the education summit and it worked. They're still doing the education summit today. So, that's 10, 11 years later. It's still a thing that they do.

By that point, I was stuck in enough in, in doing things for Python, it was sort of a habit. And I'd sort of developed the idea that, basically, you do things for two or three years and then you move on and try to do something else [00:17:00] rather than, I didn't want any one thing to become, I don't know, you know, a part of my identity. Oh, that's the person that always does whatever. So, I worked on, um, the sprints at PyCon, they had an Intro to Sprint workshop, and organizing sprints. And, uh, then, um, most recently we, uh, in, in 2018, I think it was actually the 2017 PyCon, um, a, a friend of mine from Brazil was upset that we hadn't printed the tilde over the a, the accent over the a in his name. He was Alvaro, except the font was deficient and he was Varo, with no nothing there. And he's like, this is not diversity. So I want, I decided that we would try to organize a Spanish language track, and as part of that, we [00:18:00] also decided we would organize what we called the Hatchery, which was a way for people to propose new, um, new, uh, things to try out at PyCon, um, because by this point I knew who to talk to. I knew how to sell an event, but many people had no clue. And that didn't mean they didn't have ideas that might not be worth trying. It just meant they wouldn't know how to do it, whereas I sort of knew the buttons to push to, to get a response and most people didn't.

So, uh, that's, that's the thing that I am currently still involved with, uh, at PyCon. So that's, that's sort of the stuff that I did in relation to PyCon. Part of that meant that I got, uh, elected to the board of directors for the Python Software Foundation and, uh, then chosen to serve for three years as, as the chair of PSF. And so, you know, we tried to push things like [00:19:00] making sure that our process for, uh, giving grants to conferences around the world, PyCons around the world, we, we, uh, worked to develop that, and you know, then people that came after me still, you know, continued to develop it, but that was something that we, we started.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah, yeah, a bunch of really wonderful things that, that create, like I said earlier, an inclusive community that really invites everyone to the table, whether you're defining diversity from a gender perspective, an ethnic perspective, um, but it, it, um, there are so, or, or even just diversity of thought, right? And with the Hatchery, right, where, where it sounds like it's really this incubator for innovative thought, diverse thought. And how [00:20:00] beautiful is that, that you then get this, this um, I guess this melting pot of all of these different folks who are coming together to build something, right, that is much more than we can build by ourselves and, and what a beautiful thing that becomes.

Did you also, uh, found TransCode?

Naomi Ceder: That was, um, shortly after I, I transitioned. I heard that, uh, out in, in Oakland, a man, um, Dr. Courtney Ziegler was organizing, uh, a, a hackathon focused on the trans community. Hackathons were, were really the rage then. I mean, now, now it's sort of a thing that's been around forever. But, you know, 10, 10 years ago, uh, 11 years ago, it, they, they were, uh, a, a hot new thing. There hadn't been so [00:21:00] far as anyone could figure out something like that, focused on the trans community and he was gonna do that. And I was, uh, one of the first people to support him, and then I went out to Oakland for the event. And, um, it was, um, a very, a very powerful event for, for me and everyone there, because this was the first time that we'd had something like that where, um, you know, where, where trans folk were centered and, um, you didn't have to apologize or feel funny about anything. So it was, it was a great moment. I mean, honestly, I am still connected to a bunch of those people today. He did, he did two or three others and he's gone on to do various other interesting projects. But at the time, this was really, wow. I was like, this is great.

Shortly after that, I ended up, um, being, uh, sort of posted to, uh, to London to help the company I was with do a [00:22:00] European startup. So I was, I was based in London for a year and a half and I thought, well, gee, this, it would be cool to do something like that here. And through a chance Twitter connection, Jessica Rose and I came together and we decided, yeah, let's, let's do something here. So that's how, how TransCode was founded.

It was one of those things that was actually funny in that, um, I would talk to people and they would all say, well, that's a wonderful idea, but there are no trans people in tech in, in, in the United Kingdom. So I, I basically kind of tracked people down individually. I think I had coffee or a beer or something with half of London, it seemed like at the time. Each time it was like, well, I'm kind of interested, but I don't think there's anybody else. As, as it turned out there, there was in fact, you know, a pretty good group. I think we had 60 or 70 people for our first event.

That was, that was actually, yeah, that was pretty, pretty rewarding to be able to do something like that. And then, uh, I [00:23:00] think there were, there were businesses formed. There were certainly a number of people who sort of decided that maybe, maybe they could see their way forward to transition and do things like that after coming together with other people, uh, for a weekend.

Nicole Huesman: How wonderful is that? And like you said, you, you were talking to different people individually who then were saying, oh, well yeah, I'm, I'm interested, but yeah. There's nobody else like me, right?

Naomi Ceder: Right. Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Nicole Huesman: What an achievement in being able to bring, bring folks together, right? I mean, it's, mm-hmm.

Naomi Ceder: Yeah.

Nicole Huesman: Life is truly about human connections.

You talked about this being, you know, one of the things that you are, um, fulfilled by, have been fulfilled by. What do you think are some other rewarding experiences that you've had that you look back on and you say, wow, that [00:24:00] was, that was really cool. I'm glad, glad I, I did that.

Naomi Ceder: I suppose probably one of the, one of the most important was the fact of of being chair of the Python Software Foundation for three years. So, you know, here I was this sort of old trans woman and you're, you're, you know, leading the organization for one of the most popular programming languages in the world. How does that even happen? And of course, it, it puts you in a position where, um, you can, um, you can try to do things to help people out. And I think the thing is that, uh, that, you know, this community that I, I sort of valued so highly had sort of decided that, that they would have me do this. I found that to be quite an honor at the time, and I, I still do.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about what you remember as some of your biggest challenges or [00:25:00] adversities that, that you faced and, and overcame and what you think, uh, were lessons from those experiences?

Naomi Ceder: I suppose there have been various ones. I could point to, um, the sort of the switch I made from education to sort of more of the business world, which was, it was part of the decision to transition. There was no way I could do that as part of a private school then, or now. It wouldn't really work. By definition, I couldn't really tell people what I, why I was doing it, so there wasn't a lot of support that way. And it was doing something completely different. It was not, it wasn't a blind risk, but it was certainly taking a risk and it was a big transition. It was a big adjustment to, to a completely different, uh, different sort of world. That was probably, you know, as big a transition as the later gender transition was just to sort of, uh, switch to, to things [00:26:00] like that.

I think there were a couple of things that I, I sort of learned that, that, that I sort of relied on and, and one of them is just basically, and it's just, it's not this profound, it's just, just keep going. You just have to put your head down and keep going. And if you do that, I have found over the course of my life that I, a large percentage of the time, you will eventually get through it and you will be able to sort of work your way. But it, it can be very, very tiring, demoralizing, all of those things when you're in the middle of it. But I mean, I think keeping that kind of sense of perspective.

Years ago I ran, uh, I ran marathons. I ran about a dozen marathons. Not fast, but I ran marathons. Long distance runners used to joke about, you know, having this saying, nothing ever always gets worse, which, you know, sort of untangled means basically, no matter how crappy you feel, if you keep [00:27:00] going, you're probably not going to feel that crappy a couple of miles down the line.

It's not always true. Sometimes, in fact you do feel worse, but, uh, you know, it's sort of, just keep going. I think that was probably the thing that carried me through, um, more than anything.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Naomi, you're, you're a chameleon. You've not wanted to be defined by any one thing. You've made several different changes and adaptations and transitions over your years on our wonderful planet. Can you talk about the decision that you made to, to move from being a teacher into the business world, and then the transition around being a, a trans woman and the decisions, the courageous decisions, that you made to do that and what that was like, and, and the light that you saw through following [00:28:00] in a more authentic path for yourself.

Naomi Ceder: As I mentioned, the, the decision to to move into the business world was sort of, um, a necessity by the other decision. And the decision to to transition was kind of driven as, as I put it, as a person like that, I mean, you know, it's sort of a tough thing to, you know, grow up and go through life realizing that you are probably the one thing that is the worst thing in the world to be.

I think the, the standard reaction, which is what most people do, is that you try to hide it, uh, and you try to live with it. And I, I was convinced that, that I was going to be able to live with that until I died. And the problem was that, by the time I reached my fifties, I realized I wasn't dying nearly fast enough. And so, you know, something had to be done.

So, in a way, it's, it's not to, to, to me or [00:29:00] to a number of people who've been through this, it's not exactly a matter of courage. It's a matter of you've got two choices. Which one are you going to choose? And, you know, I, I like to think I chose life. Unfortunately, there were some people who knew me, who felt I chose wrong. But, um, you know, that's, that's what it kind of comes down to.

For me, it was, it was a, a long process in a way of dealing with, um, of dealing with internalized, uh, misogyny, honestly, uh, not to mention internalized transphobia because the, you know, the societies that, you know, society that I had grown up in was, was both very misogynist and, and very, uh, transphobic, homophobic. And that's to say, middle America of the 1960s. Nothing special. I mean, that's just what it was. And as I think back, um, the, the [00:30:00] routine racism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia that, you know, nobody thought anything about, um, were just, uh, sort of staggering to look back on. Not that we're that much better now, but I mean, it was just sort of, my God.

So, you know, it was, it was kind of dealing with that, uh, and coming to terms with that, and realizing that, um, you know, there, there may be many, many things that are not great, but actually, um, you know, being who I was, was not going to be on that list. Yeah, I will, I will actually will, will give my wife credit. We've been together for going on, um, 38 years now, and at the time, she, she did have a little bit of processing to do and she came to the conclusion, there's nothing wrong with you. So, yeah. Okay. Fair enough.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Yeah. Wow, wow. How [00:31:00] beautiful to have that kind of relationship where it's just absolutely accepting of everything the other person is. It has me pause and say, oh my gosh, if we all had that, what would, yeah, what would, right, what would life, what would the world, uh, be? I, I just, it's just beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it.

Naomi Ceder: Sure.

The Imposter Syndrome has become a very common thing. In fact, I think these days, if you don't claim Imposter Syndrome, people are gonna suspect you're a fake. And I have, ironically, a, a perspective on really being an imposter. I was an imposter for more than half of my life. And you know, it's, it's, it's one of these ironies of being trans that you're an imposter. And when you stop being an imposter, that's when everybody thinks you're a fake. I think it was one of the things certainly that I [00:32:00] had to deal with, and I think my, my way of dealing with that was to decide that, um, once I made that decision, I was not going to ever lie about it. I was always going to own up to who I was.

And I think in terms of dealing with, with Imposter Syndrome in general, it's something that I, I, I vaguely recall there is even some, some research suggesting that there are things like that, is that if you focus on what you are really trying to do, sincerely, and focus on what you value, and are completely honest about who you are, what you are, then I, you don't really have anything to fear from Imposter Syndrome. And in fact, it can help one deal with these feelings of being an imposter.

I've given a lot of talks and, um, you know, people seem to think I know what I'm talking about. [00:33:00] I assure you I'm not. Most of the time, I'm not even listening when I talk. But you know, it's, um, the thing that I try to keep in mind as I do all of these things is: These people have asked me for my opinion. They've asked me for whatever. They've asked me to do this thing, that thing, the other thing. I am going to do it to the absolute best of my ability and be absolutely honest that this is what I've got. Here it is. And if they don't like it, well, that's just, that's it. This is what I've got.

And I have found that, over the years, to be something that, um, that can help, particularly in facing a, I don't know, a difficult audience or a difficult situation or something like that, where you start to doubt yourself is, you know, what am I really trying to do? What do I really value here?

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. And if you are authentically you, [00:34:00] then there's really nothing to hide from, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I love, I, I love that notion of how to, yeah, how it, it's a different perspective on how to think about Imposter Syndrome and then how to get through that.

Naomi Ceder: I mean, I think the other thing too, that actually now when, when, when I first talked about this years ago, it was not very much acknowledged is that, uh, Imposter Syndrome is quite often cast as some sort of moral failing on the part of the person who has it and it is never that. Imposter Syndrome is a person who has internalized society telling them that they're worthless in one way or another. It's, it's not that they are worthless. It's that they have internalized, whether it's girls are bad at math or whatever it [00:35:00] might be, it's not anything other than that sort of internalized doubt that has, was, is, sort of created by people not accepting you in the first place. It’s a defensive mechanism.

Nicole Huesman: What a great way to think about it and then how to overcome it.

So there, there has been in evolution in building more inclusive, welcoming communities, which has been great to see. What gives you the most hope today, you know, in the evolution of building these more diverse and inclusive communities?

Naomi Ceder: I think there is reason for cautious optimism. There has been progress. There has been increased awareness. Honestly, even if you, you look at the fact that we now, you know, being [00:36:00] woke is now another front on the culture wars. It's, um, sort of first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. You know, it's, it's that sort of thing where uh, I think even that reaction against it shows that there is more awareness, there are more, uh, women and other minorities that are getting into things.

It will be a slow process, but you know, as, as we have more people getting into, say, middle management positions. Okay, no, they still don't have the power, but in order to get to upper management, most likely you have to go through middle management, so there is now more possibilities. So, I, I think in the long term, um, you know, things will continue. There is much more ability to be aware of things so that, you know, we can now communicate with groups of people in different parts of the world and there are, are somewhat fewer barriers, even for [00:37:00] poorer people and things like that.

I think still in, in the tech business, that is one of our problems is both language diversity, but also income level diversity. So, you know, there is, there is much to do, but. Yeah. I would say if you look back to, as I say, look back to when I was a kid versus today. Yeah, we have made progress.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Yeah.

So looking back now on, on your journey, what is advice that either you would give your younger self, right, you know, gee, I wish I knew that back then, or advice that you would give to others to help them along on their own journeys?

Naomi Ceder: One of the things that causes, causes us all a lot of trouble is this, uh, tendency to, to, to judge others, to judge ourselves. There's a lot of judgment going on that [00:38:00] serves very little purpose. I have, I've kind of made it my personal pledge that I am not in the business of judging other people for what they wear, what they… I mean, sure, there are certainly actions that are not acceptable. I'm not saying that. But it's sort of judging, judging a good person, a bad person, all of those sorts of things based on a lot of these things. It's just, it's, it's not helpful. It, it, it is not a good thing.

Nicole Huesman: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And that is so true, right? Wouldn't it be a much better world if we were open to hearing other people, to truly listening to and hearing, hearing other people, hearing their thoughts. What a wonderful world if we were able to listen and truly hear each other and be [00:39:00] open to diverse thought and ideas.

Naomi Ceder: Indeed. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Nicole Huesman: Well, as we wrap up, Naomi, what does She Lights the Way mean to you?

Naomi Ceder: It strikes me as a really nice initiative to continue to help spread the word of, of people who, you know, of everybody's story, actually. For me, I'm all about, um, making sure as many of those stories get told as possible. So, you know, yeah…

Nicole Huesman: Yeah.

Naomi Ceder: More power to you.

Nicole Huesman: Thank you so much. It has been such an honor and, and such a pleasant afternoon to talk to you and to, to learn from you.

Naomi Ceder: My pleasure.

***

That wraps up my conversation with Naomi Cedar. Her journey from educator to Python community leader and our ongoing efforts to create inclusive spaces in tech are truly [00:40:00] inspiring.

If you'd like to learn more about Naomi and her work, you can check out her book, the Quick Python book. You can also follow her via social media. For those interested in getting involved with inclusive tech initiatives, look into TransCode, the hackday event Naomi founded. You can find information about their events and how to participate on their website. If Naomi's thoughts on education and coding resonated with you, consider exploring The Friendly Guides series that she mentioned, which aims to make tech topics more accessible to everyone. All of these links are available in the show notes. I'd love to hear your thoughts about our discussion. What insights did you gain? How has Naomi's story inspired you? [00:41:00] You can drop me a note at nicole@shelightstheway.com or leave a comment on any of the social handles for the project.

Thanks so much for listening and see you next time.